This is radio BIDAR Today 1/31/2022 We have special guest tonight Stef Very welcome to our podcast and radio BIDAR.
Thank you thank you for having me.
So last week’s we talked about different topics of Metaverse, One was about metaverse and the challenges that we are you having for coming fear for future the other one was made over us and how we can deal with logistics and during that challenges that we face in future because there is no assigned protocol up to 9 different companies are going through it another topic that we talked about was Metaverse and singlarity that’s what happens and what is the possibility that someone would leave their real world and just migrate to Metaverse and prefer to stay there instead of having his life in here.
So now tonight we can continue our discussions about Metaverse since Stef is more expert in A. I. and HCI. human computer interaction, maybe it’s a good topic that we can open and talk about Metaverse and how do we see it in future and how are the impacts what are the technologies that they have done or what is in your opinion that what do you think that it will come to us.
Sure so coming from in HCI points I guess there’s the different ways that we’re going to interact with it so from although I don’t know too much about specifically Metaverse I have done some research in the way that we interact using VR and AR and the approach the actual design of how to show the information is is really new or in the way that we interact with we’ve had use computers for a long time. But the way that we interact with buttons and switches in a much more tactile manner is still quite new in the field of research and what is the best way to make this type of interaction intuitive and so there is it in a lot of education in UI design is still builder in the world of like web because right now that’s probably one of the biggest ways that we interact with our programs and so there still needs to be a shift in towards that user interface in the virtual world
There has been a lot of experimentation of attaching it to different types of Whether it’s like your hand or UI that’s like about like in a video game where you have different hot elements but they’re still the interaction it still seems to not be quite to the level of feeling natural that I think is needed to have this fully immersive world there are different types of like trackers for tracking fingers when I seen Google chart because funding this type of research whether it’s outside in or have types of trackers on your fingers to that checking to outside type of like light sources and things like that.
But there is still other element that are missing like that tactile feedback loop of certain types of touches and and things like that which are still very bulky in where the technology is nowadays.
There is a lot more We talked about but more specifically if they see either it’s more of what the. I feel like it’s still very early in that interaction and where you’ll you’ll still see people getting sick in they are movement really needs to be done in a specific way in where some people from my research group at Laurentian have been testing out in trying to track these types of movements it seems like some people are maybe more acceptable to certain types of interactions and I think that the approach of interaction will have to be more customized to an individual then where when you just go on a website it’s everyone sees the exact same type of interface and that’s another aspect where customizability is still very new we do have different types of questions from from the government and stuff like that as far as accessibility changing size of in colors if you have if you’re color blind but we don’t have as much customizability for in specific individuals and the way that they feel more comfortable in that type of environment
That’s great I just as introduction for those who may not know they weren’t HCI or human computer interaction does that knowledge there’s a science that is happening all right introduce round let’s say 40 years ago the first things that come here came and they mean idea the main idea of HCI is feeling the gap between the computer and that a human mind.
Something is in your mind something is in computer why how we can fill the gap and tell what is in our minds yeah but sure we see keyboards and mouse but the way that make units more smooth it’s called HCI
So now from a perspective as a stef mentioned yeah we are a very big leap a very big jump with Metaverse that it can help but still there’s a lot of way to go on it will have as you said we have to you had some search is that this is what I find you have some searches and lunch university that’s interesting yeah on this is specific matter very nice so we are doing it, good.
Yes, actually I thank him for more of a like a video game background and I just kind of stumbling around these people that seem to really enjoy that that type of interaction with her some of them are gamers but not all of them some of them just enjoy that type of interaction whether it’s visual auditory or tactile that there’s there’s many different ways that you can Interact and it’s really important that we have these types of groups to do this research because I do believe that this is the future and it’s only gonna help tomorrow research treat me do you want it.
I got a question form stef. What’s the difference between brain computer interface and human computer interface.
Yes, human computer interface is more that interaction from the outside of your body whether it’s through your hands to your mouth or I guess movement it much more tactile types of interactions were brain computer interface tends to be more about the installing directly on to the neurons itself where you have a more direct to the nervous system of the human so in example of like bring computer interface would be putting in a chip and being able to control like a robotic arm without having to really move anything.
The computer interaction would be like you see I would be more like controlling this robotic arm through joysticks or through commands saying go pick that up.
Do you want to ask. Question I apologize if it seems to me we questions and probably you’re had that discussion before but it seems that you have been searching about Metaverse that’s something that is my question at the point as it just new term to attracts eyes and minds and blah blah blah because we had that experience before where the term those terms having interviews at the tracks all of our agents a lot of people have been discussing about those but then the teams that did that actually happen it took a long time for us to see using those kind of things in our life dealing that something added to normal people’s life. And all these kind of things that discussion about Metaverse but it happened when it happened soon or is it just another chance and on there these kind of project at the big companies compete with each other June saying that we are leading the stands for to add new things do not open close life change or near future life or will it be just a research topic another research topic to fancy kind of things that just be around without adding more meaningful things to human beings life.
It is it can save a little bit on that although I don’t think I’m not sure the right person to go into too much in depth about the business but I think there’s definitely I push from Facebook in the way that the social media is portrayed in the general public where specially the newer generation tends to it is starting to more pull back from the social media that at least I grew up with in turning to other types of the media or other forms of communication and I think one of the causes of that is is Facebook trying to stay relevant in that rebranding itself is once started out and trying to be more intertwined in not just coming home and talking to friends but being part of your personal life outside like I’ve I’ve seen some talk about AR and being able to bring that I guess the metaverse outside of your home but also there’s the amount of money that’s in the business sector that Facebook has been not really work trying to be part of but not really part of or haven’t done.
As the gun in that direction very well where’d like Microsoft has a lot of power in it and and I think that having metaverse on the business side of having meetings and stuff it is something that they really want to be part of.
So you think that the motivation behind metaverse is not requirements from there it’s potential users as motivations behind the business or plans of does come does beats company Bits names in industry in computer science industry is that right.
Yes and no.
I think people do you want to people like shiny things and so on giving people something new to the latch on to I think.
I do have agree.
The it just yes I just want to remind you that Bill Gates today not today last week mentioned where are our prediction our anticipation for metaverse to come in our daily life is 5 to 10 years but it is wrong it is less than 2 years the what’s it he said and he said that we will see the daily meetings such thing that’s what you are doing right now will happen in Metaverse and less than 2 years. So yes as stef said, people are looking always for a fancy thing it is not a necessary thing in our life but it will come inside our life is something I always compare it with smartwatches without that we didn’t feel any lack of it but it was forced inside inside our lives and now we live with it or something like Google home or Alexa we have them we did it we used to we could use our cell phones but now they are forced in our daily lives
Something I just wanted to touch on it is in which I think also needs more research it is the psychological effect of always being connected to social media and something that we before social media didn’t really have a problem we’re just humans interacting but there’s seems to be some issues with mental health and always being connected and always trying to put your best foot forward which is something I’m scared about and I don’t know if any of you have more experience with that but it seems kind of a darker side of this future where he can help with someone’s health by you know making someone go out for walks tracking steps and heart rate and and things like that even I’ve seen. People are riding their bikes and crashing tail call 911 or put a GPS in an alert people on your contact list there’s a lot of good on that side but mental health is I think something that hasn’t been researched it enough on the side of a social media.
I guess he did use that topic the current situation that we are and the call went working from home a lot of remote meetings and also the stuff make situation perfect for interviews and something like that and people relax a bit better in the situation if you ever done this kind of work from home situation things were different I guess those big companies again need something neither pollution and that makes it gave them those of it should be noted that they were looking for a long time
last week I opened the discussion it was about relation between Metaverse and singularity and I was telling that upon Moore’s law I have more slide that every year we’ll get a reach to twice of that calculation and with half price from last year. Plus if we assume that how that knowledge them out of the human knowledge is getting increased every year of upon their predictions based on IBM prediction from 30 years ago in 2020 which right now we are in that decade, in every 12 hours the human knowledge is getting doubled every 12 hours and the amount of CPU powers are getting double so if we go this way that we are going in near future we’ll have such supercomputers such strong super computers that can interact with each other will only be so strong that will can increase our knowledge of human so they can create a world although that is rare trial and and send them in Metaverse world but just imagine that you are living in a world that every second human knowledge is getting double and then what you can see and what you can imagine in those world is really unbelievable that what we can have experience in the real world plus if those stuff will add those gadgets will become a part of our body and then we can have a part of those the strength that can communicate with each other upon computer ports with this broadband data they instead of having this medium of talking and speaking and translating in human language just compared with the Metaverse and compile it there and if we merge these these all of these technologies with the other then we will have a very massive New World that it is really unbelievable. that’s one of the signs of how we can experience singularity and how we will see it. So although that what we see is say is maybe it is so fancy it is not necessary what we are seeing is is that it too will come but we should experience it and let’s say debug it all the problems make it more friendly and in near future what we’ll see is that is really coming into our house and it is the result of coming part of our life inevitable.
I think the you are definitely right that in there’s even another aspect where it’s not just the environment involving around us but we also if involved around the environment as well where I get it back in the day no one knew how to type until the typewriter came out and more and more people are using it and so as we come out with newer technologies that allows us to interact faster and more efficiently meet within or with the computer in giving him this different medium just allow so many more different ways to interact I think we’ll also see the way that we involve using the computer will also change in speed up as well.
Okay it’s one many and we looked at something my hope is that not I’m off topic this isn’t about them all down the concept of Metaverse. as we discussed last week some news I don’t know good news or bad news so giant companies, Tech companies are buying previously you know Game studios was Microsoft what’s that you know they shocked everyone and they both activation blizzard for almost $70 billion and is ongoing so recently there are some news that Apple is trying to buy Electric Arts. it seems that every a giant companies trying to to get into in inside of both you know entertainment and also the metaverse and using those potential Studios or metaverse and for their own interests and at this time because there is no agreements between them if we think about that what happened to you now about the internet and it took some years that they had the world wide web Consortium so this Consortium was a kind of independence group specialist they decided about that doesn’t understand how things should be implemented how should be users should use this that’s our system and they care about everything all day mainly about data security which has been violated many times by these companies such as Microsoft and if for example if it was not new players such as firefox such as chrome, Oprah. it was just maybe is one single giant browser that it does that the majority of the market. Now is the time of Metaverse and each of these companies with debt trying their best to to bring their own ideas to bring your own standards and sometimes they sing together yeah that they can’t so for example with your avatar and with your wallet and I don’t want it and if you’re in now experience and purchase your crypto money you can be in several horse but sometimes it can not.
And that’s the way that’s how they want to build their own work and apparently it’s exactly depends so how do you feel responsible for the future and the future generation and to respect the respect for example users privacy and their security it seems that the but it’s starting right now they started to sell NFT such as land in Metaverse but the resort you can go and select some lands and but people are stocks started and but you can change any and all incredible they are doing incredibly investment for the future so for example today and some of the rules that they are talking about it’s nonsense for example they said that if someone a group of musicians they want to have a concert and everyone with the headsets with the VR headset they can join and use it they just pay it the bill and use it but the producer should have a land or stage or should rent a place to do that just like a you know a physical one and people to in order to be there for me is like that you just you know connect and put on your your VR and you should be there but they are thinking that you should flight you sould virtual flight in a virtual airports and communicate with the virtual taxi and many things and then be in a concert yes you should pay for the flights for examines a 5 minutes flights not to 12 hours okay but in that 5 minute they want to show you some ads the personal ads and many things. so it’s not just from now they’re violating what’s the real Metaverse and what should be because they want they just want to more and more investors and to show them that yeah our stock price would be go up we will have more in the you know and that something like this so these players is your giant player at some points it’s not monopoly it is a kind of a small maybe 4 maximum 5 players here and they can decide, decide what to do and the rest of the world should should obey.
Thank you just wanted to talk to another news today I found that because of the twentieth year of Xbox has been published now Xbox has its own metaverse right now it is called museum.Xbox.com there is the matter is that you can walk and see the history of the different games that have been published or different devices that have been published I haven’t signed and with my Xbox account if I sign in with my Xbox account you can see the history of my games what where my achievements with where my game’s at I have already played what form the consoles that I used to play all of them are available in here. So it’s a Metaverse is not far from us it does right now the real you are seeing it
so you play all of these games?
No, There public account, No I didn’t sign in with my account, It’s not active them, I’m not in the game any more.
I just hope that they don’t accept Call of duty on other types of exclusive
What about play station , There is any news from Sony’s there is a news from Sony the metaverse did you hear anything abbout it?
That as I know there is no news from their part to death the latest news but when Microsoft announced that they are buying activation the yes a stock just dropped dramatically and they lost $20 Bllion bigger news because everyone’s so that and went to buy Microsoft or activation.
It dropped 30 percent.
Yeah that’s huge yeah and the idea is Microsoft that’s has I’ve yet to just promote their service the game pass service and so everyone can just have one account game Microsoft game pass and they can play whatever game and in that time maybe Sony wants to just share some of their exclusive titles with them and about the futures accually good in that way because you know with when when there’s competition you can see more and more practice there there was one time that 30 years ago the secret process or as well as in production was just Intel and you cannot see you know a very huge difference every year but as new came started to move and ther winners is beginer users because that I’m dissenting happen for you know and get the other was a technical guy work together so yeah when there’s competition and the final users will enjoyed that I hope it happens here a Metaverse too.
Yeah I’m thinking about the meta ( former facebook) maybe they have a any plans to create hardvware for the metaverse or maybe not because Microsoft has it Xbox.
Yeah already Bought Oculus company which produces headsets and I don’t know what else they want to and yet nvidia is working on something that gamers or maybe later people they can walk in and that’s actually walk and not just walking by moving your mouse there are kind of treadmills in every direction without going to the wall and hit yourself somewhere around when you have you know the art because you cannot do enything but see anything, you see some things that it really your brain yeah and everything was working on that and but that’s a good news. What are some some hardware is coming from Metaverse.
I recommend to use watch the movie ready player one it’s from spilburg the story is a little for children but it’s exactly talking about matters and how your experiences one part is exactly the treadmill that you mentioned as it people wear a treadmill go standup on treadmill they close their self to not fall but while they’re running they have to run their expense on the trip the name is ready player one it’s 2018 Movie.
be determined to try to know that you’re talking about is is called omni directional treadmill.
you’ve worked with it Steph an influence in their seeing your researches?
well No, I would love to, but no, when I was doing my research we don’t have that much funding although our lab would have been just big enough to to have it but no I said that I haven’t had any experience we had some research students looking at the potential topics that the we could potentially get some funding but at the time that I was there the they hadn’t yet gotten anything.
something similar to this but a related to Google walk I sighed it was around I think one or 2 years ago it was they were helping people that have Alzheimer what is there they were using these VR glasses and they were trying to walk in their old days local neighborhoods so while they were walking and they see all this is my old houses in my street although they were have migrated to come under countries or maybe their cities were far far from where they were leaving but while they were seeing those childhood neighborhoods that was a good reminder of them to bring up their minds again and it was helping them so that was so nice so we are seeing the effects of VR and Metaverse in our daily lives.
-Yes and I see that there’s another the cool study that they came across we’re being used there are uniquely like that where they would put people with a very bad burns on their body in a virtual environment that look too cold so they would be in a lot of pain and feel really hot but when they look like they were in a colder environment with like snowmen and little bit of snow sprinkling down in like cliffs of ice their pain level decreased a lot in where that mental image of where you are or that immersion of the environment can really change the way that someone thinks or feels even physically.
Yeah this is a couple of the omni trade mills, interesting things like this 13800 yeah transformed by it but I think you could do that $7000 cheapest one or even $6000 this is the new world it’s the future.
One for 2 people, nice,
Who about another future for metaverse, usability metaverse for the disabled people? do you have any idea? or… my question is how can Metaverse helped to a disabled people?
So for me in the way that we interact with our keyboards for example does it is already a way of helping certain people that are disabled base of movement they can still interact or they don’t need to set necessarily go out as much or if you’re in pain but we’re the metaverse can help more disabled people is where they don’t have that normal type of dexterity that the broader population has with their fingers for example where if you can communicate or write a document just by waving your your arm. It allows them to do a lot more or to see a lot more than someone that could potentially use a mouse or things like that the world is definitely trying to go more to be more capable for as many people I don’t think that this is a Metaverse is the only way that we can do it but it is definitely going to help just because of the different types of interactions being more more general but there is other problems that do arise but from mehdi up about brain computer in interaction is is definitely going to be an interesting way that then you won’t necessarily need to have any sort of physical interaction. To do that communication and you won’t be able to tell the difference so so someone will not necessarily be judged as much as if you saw someone speaking in a robotic voice outside back like 10 years ago but online a lot of these disabilities are just gonna be forgot or be able to help me hidden where someone with decided that this release will feel more normal.
you know this is actually one of the challenges that when you’re talking about how A. I. is affecting our lives the future of talking about that yet A. I. E. P. some point better than human brain and there is still no less stable our jobs are lost our jobs and the data this is your shipping be worse that when we understand that when similarity happens and many of the disabled and handicapped people that for example they cannot see they have bring and have many maybe even with a good understanding and so these people are coming to the market so they can code because they don’t need to I still too cold okay so from then they can they can use their durability is still under skills to do new things so it it will happen though but this is not really you know my concern and you know I don’t I don’t think that’s a I and machine learning technology into your future listed all jobs if it comes to make our lives better it’s it’s it’s kind of a colleague as a customer it comes it comes it’s a content intelligence it comes to Europe to help engineers to help doctors to help but it descends to have a better decision for but the or society or the or the planets so for whatever reason you want to do because previously it was just not a some some guys just sit and without any knowledge they have to do some to make some decisions and based on that decision they had some consequences because they didn’t see what’s going on in the future but when you have lots of data and we can analyze that. Data and analyze them we can learn from them there are systems that they learn they act so for example imagine that there are some parts of the world there are you know my see if the fire by storm in jungles in the books it happens because of the nature read you don’t understand it on Tuesday but the idea is day it could be many devices there and day based on many you know many yes that’s the same situation with the temperature of my dryness of bots. And many sensors they understand that it’s going to happen they can reacts even they don’t need your mind to it the stocks to start you know stopping the fire you can just stop you know sort of process I many many many others you know used utilities so I’m I’m not really afraid of A. I. is coming and so they don’t hire means of because the machine is going better than me yes correct but they can do something better that machine and the that’s us you know and it’s a good idea that’s the user more and more you know data in our everyday life yeah it actually the there’s a good point there where medifirst will will basically simplify some of the complexity that we have in our interactions outside and be able to boil it down to a more easier type of environment for a eyes to learn how to interact with us as well where the 4 maybe it was through text and you could see things like in like shows like in black near where we can train an AI to make texting or we can take the based off movies or whatever it can with deep fix you can try to re create video but this will allow us to do some data collection that will be able to train it on. More complicated behaviors boat without having too much complexity of the outside world no don’t be interesting to see how that data collection is done and how the training is done as well what the database see into metaverse as you noted metaverse is very wide range of mark Zuckerberg mentioned it the metal is the price range of social media aren’t the using metaverse on the social media as we note that the database is very important to many of us and there what’s your opinion about the 3 B. C. N. in the in the metaverse or the need for anyone to cover that so they’re connecting them even more data even you know how many steps you walk how many times in a minutes your pure grease and do you have a good day you know the state the state time and many many many other daytime unless there is no data privacy and if there are there are festivals make our profits so it’s not one person I guess however it depends on which world you choose if you go to her is that which is for Facebook or the one that you mentioned for a W. or if you go to Decentraland Decentraland is non it’s not belonging to any of these kind of big tech companies it’s based on crypto currencies platform it is on it’s hearing right now so let’s be optimistic right definitely there is no privacy while you step find these worlds you are giving your data to that but it would be harder let’s say for Google to track you while you’re walking in the central line or sandboxes these words that are not yet belonging to one of these big tech companies that’s true but I guess even by not using those giants companies metaverse you also given them some data that they can use the times that you had. Not using those you’re too old also be a valuable information that they can use and they can trail so do you I could imagine that in future vehicles not sometimes on Microsoft well metaverse teams although they I hope that you can solve their issue that they already have their software before moving to a metaverse version. Then then you since day one of those sound bites are other platform that you mention you’re also giving them some information there are times that you are using those inform does one man of the times that you’re not using them and that’s by itself as a valuable information that they can train but but the stuff most of it good point there are difficult machine learning challenges that we cannot solve and real life because a lot of detail that Martian landing model have yet she do you know what but if you can answer those challenges or if it can solve those questions in a simplified version of the environment visuals and simulation environment that can be interesting that will be something that can add value to your daily life you know there is a joke when you want to thanks for Google they said that I know needs to have to send your CV no you already so this is the issue with when you want to yes they are in a higher now hiring for example meta lasts the higher distintos M. police and they said that it’s really hard to convince them if they are against them if you tweeted something against their idea and so the companies that okay you go along you don’t believe in this project you’re not a good fit because of that because the transparency of the data the companies you know they can they can decide what to do I wish you could always you know to hire it’s like that just like not governments in some countries they access your before you know hire you to see that if you are the same you’re going to Sam thinking and mentality like like them so mmhm it has been said about Google or Microsoft you can before but that’s simply not pretty sure that it’s going to happen again so again if you if you want. To work for manta I guess that you should have a mental you should have a Facebook accounts so if your you just remove your your face and you don’t want to use Facebook there are that that’s you know that’s it go and like that so and yeah I mean so maybe there’s something really huge problem but when the when there are just a few layers for you companies up there you should choose between them and that’s the issue Seoul sometimes people to stop the tool to hide themselves and not talk about daca but what you’re really thinking yeah so I get this simple yes that’s what are those masked behind you there are a math and math or sports or their engines maps well you might recognize multiverse those are a bit as the maps so it gets said there are. Mmhm this is taking so older scrolls Skyrim and oblivion so I would not be surprised if people were to recreate this and and the metaverse so we can walk around well there’s something about the maps and the words they started to do something for example there there aren’t there’s a company that they’re just simulating the current ward and Michael Horst all of the countries and yet you should yes it is an author and that’s our company and apply for citizenship or another one sometimes you can buy lands and there are there is that they have other ideas that so they don’t they don’t really think that the world should be like you know that the map or so they can bring whatever maps they want thanks Erica my Skyrim is set yeah yes this experiment living I I I agree the only way that really this is going to work is if if this type of environment creation it is open to the public it if you lock it down to only some individuals can you can only walk in their country there’s a lot of problems exactly that are gonna start arising and I think it is that whatever happened we would probably end up starting to see a shift in laws whether it’s local or international laws around is this type of technology okay thank you that was a very good discussion thanks for joining. Thank you for having me it was a very nice discussion and we’re happy that we have Stephens and tonight discussion thanks for coming thank you for calling me.